Discodia AR Question

[Felix12g]

First off I did read your posts. You jumped straight into "That's impossible, so lets talk about gatling guns" no reasons beyond "I think it's impossible" True with our current technology a 600 rps rifle is impossible, however it doesn't mean that we don't try. Take the m134 which fires 100 rounds per second.
Largely the rof restrictions are because of heat and the sustained recoil. That doesn't mean that the mechanisms themselves might not be able to handle the speed itself.

Here is a link to a site about the xm214
http://www.kitsune.addr.com/Firearms...14_Minigun.htm

Next, what minigun pictures are you looking at anyways? The most barrels i've seen is on the GAU-8/A which is a 30mm 7 barrel minigun with 1800-4200 rpm. This thing is a beast btw and it's mounted on vehicles.

As for pictures of a minigun, scroll up, you'll see one of the xm214. They aren't 3 feet wide. You're talking about a stationary weapon with this kind of size.

------
Lunarite core

Lets get back to the hypothetical again.
Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;"> The Diverian's striking power is enhanced by charging its round's gunpowder with a Lunarite core </td> </tr> </tbody></table>
Now, i'm guessing a bullet like this is going to go pretty fast.

Again, hypothetical as well as posting a direct quote from the weapon description of Huxley (Which IS what we're discussing here, not real life weapons)

As a theoretical way to increase FPS this lunarite is not a bad idea, there are different types of gunpowder these days that burn at different speeds to facilitate shorter barrels, adding another additive to make it more explosive and increase the FPS is not a rediculous idea.
And yes, I posted it would make the bullets fly faster, not mess with your supposed gatling gun.

As for your equations, I said they might work with the numbers. Screw it, lemme quote i don't want to rewrite it.

everything you posted might work out with those nubmers, but they're so far off anything even remotely relevant that the entire thing is useless.

Basically this is saying that even though the math is correct the numbers you started out with are so far off that any of the math is invalid and irrelevant.

As for your late post math, you still came up with a barrel needing to be .35 inches long in order for it to work, yes, i'd say it's flawed. I have nothing against you posting these kinds of things, but posting things like this are bound to give people the wrong idea of the way things actually work.

Yes, that scares me. Einstein and his theories are fine, but you posting about Relativity and your supposed bullets, which might I say, are one of the main points your entire "Mathematical model" is whacked. That is indeed frightening.

Now, you say that you have a nicely worked out mathematical model about why a gun can't fire that quickly. Then on the other hand we look at weapons that are currently in service that blow away your rounds per minute of your hypothetical model with ease and don't suffer any of the drawbacks that your math has found. Yes, a rifle that fires 600 RPS is far fetched, and yes in real life it isn't possible. Most who have posted said so, thus saying you didn't expect to be flamed for posting all of these things that are just basically wrong isn't really an issue.

As a response for your latest post, I'm not sure where you get the information that a minigun's bullets spin around in a circle as the barrels spin as well. Can you post a source for this?

[Savag3Shadow]

The main point I discussed in my post was not whether or not the speed of the gatling gun was adequate enough, that is not even an issue, we know that that is possible. The point I was trying to make was about the bullets not being able to travel fast enough to make it accurate. I used the twelve barrelled gun as a HYPOTHETICAL for my situation here, however past that, everything else is real. All of the other factors in my equation are real other than the actual gun. What I am saying is that there is no way for a bullet to go fast enough to merit a 600 round per second gun. If you think my numbers are messed up, give me some of your own and I will prove it with your numbers.
I need:
-The number of barrells on the minigun.
-The circumference of the minigun.
-The maximum rpm of the minigun.
-The caliber bullet it fires and the muzzle velocity of that bullet.
-The width in inches of the inside of one of the barrells of the minigun (basically the caliber of the bullet in terms of inches)

I will take your figures and show you the results thereof, and also explain in more detail why relativity plays in to this.


My source for the fact that the miniguns bullets spin on a decaying orbital pattern is from Einstiens theroy of relativity, which I will expound upon on my next post when you give me your numbers. However, I will give you the jist of my reasoning: Let's say that you want to throw a baseball from a moving train. You first throw the ball from an open car. The train is moving at 60 mph, and you throw the ball at 40 mph. Since the car is open and exposed to the outside environment moving by at 60 mph relative to the train, the veloctiy of the ball is -60 mph + 40 mph, which is -20 mph. The ball will fly behind you immediately at 20 mph. Now, lets say that now the car is closed (like a dining car if you will) and you throw the ball at 40 mph. Since the environment of the car is motionless relative to the train, then from a perspective of someone standing on the side of the tracks, your ball will go 40 mph + the 60 mph of the train, so it will look to someone standing at the station like you threw a ball 100 mph. The same concept applies here, except instead of a closed train car we have a barrel, and instead of a baseball we have a bullet. The vector(s) of the barrel are added to that of the bullet just as the vector of the train was added to that of the baseball's. The result is a circular movement (not to be confused with rifling) exactly the same as the guns barrel itself UNTIL the bullet leaves the barrel. The bullet then retains it's foward velocity, but is then exposed to the outside environment and no longer can sustain it's wide circular pattern (again, not to be confused with the spinning motion that results from rifling), and as a result takes a decaying pattern in it's flight path, illustrated in my last post. If you wanted to relate this to the baseball/train car model, it would be like throwing the baseball out of a window of the train. The ball would maintain it's 100 mph velocity until it reached the window, but after passing through the window, would not have the added velocity of the train, and would then slow down to 40 mph again. Of course you have to factor in air friction, etc. but you get the idea. Another way to think of it would be this: Imagine you are swinging a water balloon in a circle above your head getting ready to throw it at someone. When you throw the water balloon, it goes foward, but also curves a bit towards the direction you were swinging it. This is because although there is no more circular force applied to the water balloon after you release it, it still retains the INERTIA of the swinging, just as the bullet would.
I hope that helped.

Edit: I am not suggesting that the barrel is moving foward as well as the bullet, I just wanted to use that example to demonstrate that you would add the VELOCITIES. And, as a reminder from physics, velocity is speed + direction, and direction doesn't necessarily have to be foward, it can be circular.

[Felix12g]

6 barrels
about 1 foot daimeter
10,000 rpm
5.56
3353 fps muzzle velocity 55gr bullet
.223 inches
barrel length .69meters



Get cracking. Lets see why tried and true weapons don't shoot straight. One thing you have to remember, rotational velocity and forward velocity are on two axis. If the rotation doesn't affect the speed of the bullet, you probably don't want to include it in equations. And if you think it does, tell us why.

One thing, your water baloon example. The water inside the baloon is still rotating even if you did throw it using forward momentum. That's why the baloon flies funny in your little experiment. Try another experiment, swing it around your head a bunch, then instead of throwing it just hold it in your hands. You'll feel the water still spinning around because of the energy you gave it.
There's a couple other things in that post that I think are a bit off kilter, but it doesn't really matter.



Just fyi the energy of a bullet in foot-pounds has the equation:

bullet weight in grains x velocity^2
-------------------------------------------- = ft-lbs
450400

Example 150gr bullet at 2700 fps

150x2700^2
---------------- = 2428 ft-lbs
450400

You might want to take this into consideration if you want to attempt real equations dealing with your air friction affecting a bullet. Also, look towards some ballistics equations on the flight of bullets, they'll be helpful.

[Savag3Shadow]

Ok, really quick to address your water balloon point (ill get the rest later), the water keeps moving because it retains the INERTIA of the swinging, that was my point. The bullet retains inertia too, but since there is no source to continue providing the spinning action, the inertia decays, causing the bullet to swing in a wide arc.

[Savag3Shadow]

Also, the 5.56 is in mm, I need inches please, though I might find somewhere online to convert it.

[dnL]

No way it can be 600 rounds per second. Huxley aims for a somewhat believeable sense of gameplay. Let's say the AR holds 100 rounds per magazine (a very high number by today's standards). That means that with the said gun, it would take 1/6th of a second to shoot your entire magazine. 100 bullets that fast? No way they would do that, it just seems unnatural to me.

Even if it was true, to have any use for the RoF, the magazine would have to be at least 2400 rounds per magazine (or 4 seconds to disperse all rounds in the weapon), which would be simply impossible to hold or run around with, because the weight is so rediculous.

If anyone cared to notice, I did not read half of page 1. I don't like water balloons. Or math.

[Ao1xSniperkev]

yea now that i think about it, even in the future this would be pretty impossible.

I don't like water balloons. Or math.

i feel ya man

[Savag3Shadow]

Hey, I understand where you are coming from, but if we want to get technical in proving some points, it can get pretty technical...

[Felix12g]

.223 inches

It's right there.

Examples are never the perfect way to get a point across because they're never perfect as a representation. The problem is you're examples have very little to do with ballistics.

[nubs]

I believe the spent shell casings on a modern gatling gun are ejected via the same means that they are loaded, all the bullets are on a chain and they are encased in a spcial slightly flexible case between the ammo box and the gun. Part of the spinny motion of the gun winds up the chain of ammo, draing the chain into the gun where the pin strikes the bullet and the case is drawn out still attached to the chain, and then detached as it passes out the other side.

Thats fairly innacurate laymans talk but its also why they are sometimes called Chainguns, it is also used in some single barrel weapons like the 30mm tank killing nose cannon on the Apache.


With regards to guture weapons.. think caseless ammo, im not sure of the technology but new weapons use caseless ammo, self propelled and without any need to eject spent cases, wich is why some of the single barrled rifle or SMG weapons comin gon the market (XM models and some new H&K) can obtain some very ferrocias rounds per second.

The other side to this debate is the Metal Storm weapon system.. multi barrelled but no spinning parts, there is even a handgun using that technology.. google it


Its all up in the air, but there is potential that a future weapon could fire like that, but it would have to be exceptionally heat resistant.

[Felix12g]

Yeah, those weapons are sick. It's what, 4 rounds out of the pistol before recoil even starts to affect it?

[makavelli914]

Felix you pretty much made a huge post on a bunch of bullshit, its common sense a guns not gonna fuckin shoot 600 per second i dont care if ur in the year 8 million, I never said huxley would be realistic but its not gonna be to the point where its likle acid trip ridiculous, just imagine shooting 600 rounds per second on a handheld medium weight assault rifle, u dont even get a third of that on the worlds fastest firing fucking battleship turrets it would like liquify u from ur hands to shoulders break ur spinal cord make ur legs snap from vibrationns going to the ground and much more.

[Felix12g]

You might just want to take a look at metal storm before you talk like that. Just because you haven't seen it in a hollywood movie doesn't mean that it isn't possible. With a basic design like that, a 600 round per second rifle firing extremely tiny beads would be possible. You'd need an interesting feed system and charging, but again it's sci fi. Not quite sure where the liquification of your body comes from, but then again I don't see why you're necroing this post in the first place when you offer nothing new and only bitch.

[SolidTheSnake]

"Snowcone! After the game I get a whole snowcone! If I play a whole game I get a whole snowcone, but sometimes I play a half game then I get a whole snowcone. So I think it doesn't matter cause even if you play a half game you get a whole snow cone. If I wanted to play a whole game or a half game I would play a half game cause you would get a whole snow cone too. I would play a half game and get a snowcone filled with cherry, but if they don't have cherry I'll get grape cause those are both my favoritest, well actually cherry is my favoritest, but if they don't got cherry then I get grape because it is one of my favorites, but it isn't my favoritest because cherry is my favoritest."

I would like to nominate my post for most contribution to our given subject on the matter.

Now putting aside all the science and math and theories/theorems. I would have to say I don't think they would go this deep into thinking on the science of whether this gun would work. It is a game, not real, even sci-fi for that matter, real world physics and theories don't exist in this game. Only the physics they create for themselves. Now here is the way the conversation went when thinking about this gun.

Boss: We need a kick ass gun that will pull in our customers. Frank! What do you got for us.

Frank: Uhhh ok ok okok ok. Uhh lets make the first gun uhhh a machine gun!!! Uhh and it fires lots o bullets a second.

Boss: Did you even do your work! How many bullets does it fire a second!

Frank: uhhhh a thousand!!

Boss: That would not be poss-

Frank: I mean 600!!!

Boss: Ok lets get it going let it fire a shitload of bullets!!!


I am guessing about that much thought was put into it.

[Venge]

Hey, guess what?! It probably uses the Metal Storm system!

Thread over! :D

[Allgame Lord]

somthing that fires that much would chew through so much ammo so fast and fire so fast it would be useless.

[Grind]

Ok. I'm not going to come up with anything fancy. No logical resoning, no sources to back up my info. But I'm going to tell you how this gun could shoot 600 bullets per second.

know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about the future. I'll explain how the gun can work.

The gun (though it looks like a regular assault rifle) has 100 different tiny barrels inside the one main barrel. These barrels all shoot at the same time, each one basically it's own seperate AR that all shoot with the push of the main trigger. Now these bullets are obviously very small, and they wouldn't do much damage. But that's fixed because they are exploding bullets. These bullets explode on impact and do a bit less damage than regular bullets. How do the bullets explode? awesome futeristic technology thats how. The gun has insane recoil and can only be shot in short bursts by the toughest of soldiers.

Or maybe like this.

This AR has only one barrel, one normal sized clip (whatever that may be). The bullets inside the clip start out in a gas form, each one the size of 1/100 of an atom. As the tiny particles move into the gun they form into regular bullets and are fired. The AR shoots at 600 bullets per second due to super futeristic technology that allows for a seemingly impossible (but now thanks to super futer technology it is possible) firing rate.