Playing Huxley Without Combat

[Morinden]

I think a limited crafting ability would be nice. for eg, phantom class players can only modify sniper rifles, enforcers can only modify assault rifles etc. and those weapons can only be used by a certain lvl range player. so a rifle made by a lvl 50 player cannot be used by a lvl 10. this is solved by having classed weapons, which will probably be incorporated anyway. as for resource farming, i would hope that there is only xp and some form of currency reward for missions/battles. simply buy the mods fo ur guns(at the appropiate lvl) and customize ur gun. of course there would have to be negative effects for every positive mod. smaller ammo clips for higher zoom lvl, or lower accuracy for higher ROF. this should solve balancing problems. just my first thoughts on it anyway, i'm sure u guys will pick it to bits ;-)

[vernes]

Originally Posted by Morinden

..phantom class players can only modify sniper rifles, enforcers can only modify assault rifles etc...

This removes the essence of what I believe a support-class stands for.
He supports.
He doesn't support ONLY himself, he supports his team with tasks that aids them.

Being only able to fix/change/upgrade his own weapon has nothing to do with support.

[Morinden]

i think the support class will come into its own on the combat side of things, with healing, repairing and ammo refills. although i think support should have some cool social tasks too...perhaps putting clan symbols and color schemes on armor and weapons?

[Dementus]

Huxley without combat? This is an fps, and from what we know so far PvP combat is unavoidable; you will NOT be able to develop your character without engaging other characters in some way shape or form. Why the hell would you play huxley if you dont want to engage in combat, it makes no sense.

The game is an FPS, not an RPG so the roleplaying elements will most likely come from the role you play in a battle. Support classes (if any) will be the only way to develop without combat, and it'll probably be slow and painful (if you get xp at all!) compared to fighting your way to the top.

The devs want to put emphasis on a level plaing field, so it is very unlikely that crafting will give any sort of huge bonus (if there is crafting). I just dont think crafters will be a significant part of the game, if they are then expect to be farming PC's for resources (lunarites maybe?) and not NPC's. I'm all for customisation and variation, but not dependance on crafters; think WoW and the arcanite reaper; every warrior needed one to function at his best which needed rediculous amounts of farming (yeah I know its not like that now but back nearer release it was). Cafters should not be depended upon.

Huxley without combat!?!? honestly...

[nubs]

Full player looting would be a good thing and would encourage the very effective system Ultima Online developed...

If your body is opened to being looted you think twice before brining your best gear to a fight, and also means that you cant "finish" the game by getting the best guns and armour like you can in WoW, because you will lose them and have to go get them again,

If they could bring in the loot system used in ultima online for PvE also then that would be even better.. where every aspect of an item can be randomised, for loot drops, and special abilities added etc.

[Felix12g]

Would be much more interesting to have randomized items. It seems everything lately is all set values and limited options. Bring back the good ol days of UO and D2.

Vernes, yes, this is UT, yes these are boxes, you just don't see the load times anymore.

It's possible there's a respawn time on vehicles, but in order for them to be balanced they need to be able to be destroyed. And since infantry will be able to destroy them. And since that means that any vehicles you take into the middle of a firefight will become the target of many a crosshair, penalizing somebody for losing a vehicle that badly would be simply stupid.
"UT3 engine combined with our own network coding"
Granted UT can be customized alot, but this is still UT with some fun new features.

Last night I've been supporting a Max Unit in PS, there were 5 snipers going apeshit on his ass, so I kept repairing his armour while using him as a shield. I've spend all my resources keeping him up while he kept hurling rockets at the snipers and any vehicles closeby. Alone he would've died in 10 seconds if he kept shooting, 5 minutes if he used the time repairing himself INSTEAD of shooting (quite useless). With an engineer around, he kicked ass for 15 minutes.
THAT's what I like about support-classes.

Somehow I don't see somebody sitting there eating rockets while another guy is crouched behind him shooting white shit into his ass. But hey, you can hope. As for sacrificing points, they've stated that you spend points from leveling to open different skill sets. If there is a class for engi, you have sacrificed points in other weapons to get that.

[Reignier]

I think that scavanging would be an amazing idea as long as its realistic (i dont want to see a guy carying a million pieces of stuff from a tank and having no effect, and i think you should see the part too.) as an example... lets say your gun gets shot then maybe on a certain percent chance it brakes and you have to go find a new weapon or take the part from soneone else allowing for the time to fix it of course.

Crafter as a profession, and professions in general i dont like the idea of. but support is completely different ( the earlier posts seems to think they were the same maybe thats just me)

i think that when prepairing for the battlefield in say the full 100v100 people should be able to fill up the support positions at will. like in americas army being able to have medic class after passing the classes. i mean to say that if one day i want to be the transport driver i can be in one battle or two but then i can choose to be just a foot soldjier too. i think this allows for things that people want but also gives people the option not to worry about it.

cheers

[vernes]

Originally Posted by Felix12g

Vernes, yes, this is UT, yes these are boxes, you just don't see the load times anymore.

I'm talking about he outside, the large barren fields of.. grass! You can't mean that in this wide open plain, there are boxes and if I happen to stand close to the border of one box, I could be standing next to someone without seeing him?
This isn't UT where your battle is inside a small 'map' where the borders are made up from a cityscape wallpaper stuck against a inpenetrable wall.
Sure there is a wall around the player. It's its maximum render distance. But this isn't thesame 'box' that make up a UT battlefield.

I'm talking about large open fields that offers you the option to decide for yourself how far from the enemy you wish to stand.
GIVEN this asumption, I hope you agree there is room for an engineer to do his shit NEAR teammates, and still keep out of harms way?

Originally Posted by Felix12g

It's possible there's a respawn time on vehicles, but in order for them to be balanced they need to be able to be destroyed. And since infantry will be able to destroy them. And since that means that any vehicles you take into the middle of a firefight will become the target of many a crosshair, penalizing somebody for losing a vehicle that badly would be simply stupid.

Woah, I bet Neorcron will make you go beserker then. You actually have to pay an arm and a leg to get a vehicle, and it still can get blown up, at which point its gone.
So its bad to make losing equipment a bad experience? That's the point of any battle I thought.

Originally Posted by Felix12g

Somehow I don't see somebody sitting there eating rockets while another guy is crouched behind him shooting white shit into his ass. But hey, you can hope.

I'm sorry? I was hoping I made it clear I was telling you what happened, not what I hope will happen. But to make sure you understand, that scenarion happened. Which is why I used it as an example on why I believe why a Supportive role is important for any battle-game.

Originally Posted by Felix12g

As for sacrificing points, they've stated that you spend points from leveling to open different skill sets. If there is a class for engi, you have sacrificed points in other weapons to get that.

So we agree on this.

[vernes]

Originally Posted by Dementus

Huxley without combat? This is an fps, and from what we know so far PvP combat is unavoidable; you will NOT be able to develop your character without engaging other characters in some way shape or form. Why the hell would you play huxley if you dont want to engage in combat, it makes no sense.

Ofcourse there will be combat, the title is more or less pointing to the possibility to spend hours online without combat while still having fun doing OTHER stuff.
Like supporting teammates with... non-combat jobs like repairing, upgrading, creating..

Originally Posted by Dementus

The game is an FPS, not an RPG so the roleplaying elements will most likely come from the role you play in a battle. Support classes (if any) will be the only way to develop without combat, and it'll probably be slow and painful (if you get xp at all!) compared to fighting your way to the top.

slow and painful is how we like it! :P.
You say it's a fps, I say it's more than just a fps. The persistant nature of the game indicates a focus on the character you play. A character placed inside a story where it plays a role that can change the path of the story. This is what roleplaying is about. It doesn't have to come from the player, it can also come from the game itself.
Also, I don't see how roleplaying elements can hurt your fps experience. Will you missles miss if your target roleplays at you? If he calls you a filthy Alternative, will this lessen the experience for you to shoot him?
From the company's perspective I'd be sure to get the biggest part of the gamer market as I can. I mean, if adding a simple crafting skill is all it takes to lure in another 30% of the gamer-population. Hell! why not?

Originally Posted by Dementus

The devs want to put emphasis on a level plaing field, so it is very unlikely that crafting will give any sort of huge bonus (if there is crafting). I just dont think crafters will be a significant part of the game, if they are then expect to be farming PC's for resources (lunarites maybe?) and not NPC's. I'm all for customisation and variation, but not dependance on crafters; think WoW and the arcanite reaper; every warrior needed one to function at his best which needed rediculous amounts of farming (yeah I know its not like that now but back nearer release it was). Cafters should not be depended upon.

Huxley without combat!?!? honestly...

Your WoW example is about items, not about crafting. The dependency on crafters is just a matter of numbers and items, which is besides the point. All I'm saying is the classic rp things like crafting or harvesting can't hurt the game that much imo.
fps-fans will still seek out fps-fans and rp-fans will seek out rp-fans.
And those who don't care will still shoot missles and mine for lunarite.


However, the discussion about if the development should suffer because of adding these rp-elements I can not argue. If polarizing the game to either fps or rp stereotypes, I have to say fps.
But I was hoping Huxley would strife to be something more.

[Dementus]

Some good points... I'm not hugely against rp (execpt farming) elements though I am being somewhat realistic.

Some posts I see of people saying they want to make their own vehichles, give them paintjobs and such. The thing is the game just wont be that flexible, I expect to see some crafting system yet I highly doubt it will be as in depth as some people hope. Lets be honest, there are no two ways about this; you'll need to participate in PvP for almost everything. In fact a crafting system may require that you go capture resources from other players.

Another thing is I think a support classes uses will be limited in this game judging from the gameplay. For example gun running is kinda silly if you think about it, combat just wont be static enough to make this possible. Perhaps though something not unlike planetsides ANT running will be implimented, which is a good thing that adds extra dimensions to combat. But alot of ideas that have been thrown around seem VERY unlikily due to the pace/speed of combat.

I am wholey against anysort of dependance on crafters because it rewards time spent (farming money etc) and not skill, one of the (imo) defining points about Huxley. Why should a guy who has just simply spent longer in game defeat a player who is of much superior skill. You can have the weapon of uberness but it shouldn't worth a damn if the person behind it cant aim for crap. Perhaps crafted modifications to guns that compliment what the weapon was intended to do (such as a minigun with faster RoF), but not mods that would enable the weapon to multitask (such as the said minigun gaining a superior range). Crafting should compliment a users skill, not stand in its place.

But I agree with you I'm all for crafting; more veriaty = better. Just as long as crafting doesn't simply reward time spent, or give players advantages that overwhelm the effect of skills...

[vernes]

Originally Posted by Dementus

...I am wholey against anysort of dependance on crafters because it rewards time spent (farming money etc) and not skill, one of the (imo) defining points about Huxley. Why should a guy who has just simply spent longer in game defeat a player who is of much superior skill....

But what if Huxley doesn't have money?
What if crafters would craft items to support their team?
In this case a crafter would be nothing more but a player with a certain type of weapon.
If you fight an enemy with tanks, you need anti-vehiculair weapons. And you'll need a group of players with said weapons.

You need team-mates who will spend skillpoint/certpoint/whatever points to weild this weapon.
So your team CAN have better firepower just by knowing the right team-mates. How is this different from having an 'crafter' in your team? If you have a medic, you can respawn on the battlefield instead of your base. If you have a pilot, you can have airstrikes.

Engineers/Crafters are nothing but an extra variable in the battle.
The fact that their items could depend on howlong they spend 'harvesting' simply means that a dedicated crafter is better than a lazy bastard.

If you step into an transport aircraft, you expect to arrive at the target right? This means the pilot has to be dedicated enough to fly across 2 continents and reach the enemy base. This means your team will have a better chance if the pilot is willing to spend more time on transport then the average soldier/grunt.

The enemy has crafters as well, boohoo if he's lazy, good for you.

Originally Posted by Dementus

...But I agree with you I'm all for crafting; more veriaty = better. Just as long as crafting doesn't simply reward time spent, or give players advantages that overwhelm the effect of skills...

I agree on all your other points

[nubs]

Hmm im not sure I understand what you mean... why would a crafter allow a squad to have more tactical weapons .. or the ability to fly further?

From what you are saying it sounds like in the future you expect squads to all go out with 1 type of gun and then have a person along with them who can assemble a rocket launcher out of scrap metal and trees for the squad to use when they find a tank.. assuming they get to use it before the tank blows them up whilst the crafter gets out his Black & Decker Workmate and screwdrivers.

Ther eis money in the game, theyvestated that there will be a full economy, but its in swapping loot (not sure if you can loot weapons & armour, but you do get money for your kills and you can spend this on your weapons etc.)

Its just not a game where crafting is suitable... if ypu put crafting in the game then it has to be useful otherwise noone will buy the crafted items, if its useful then the crafted items will become essential must have items and then it becomes essential and you are stuck with a severe handicap on gameplay because you have to go farming for resources to meet the demand, then you get characters who dont bother fighting.. people see those characters making cash hand over fist.. more characters get made to farm cash .. etc.

There should be absolutely no crafting what so ever, if you want to play a less combat orientated character, play a pilot, driver, commander, squad leader, scout, engineer or medic.

[Merilon]

Originally Posted by Felix12g

Taking up space. People who play the game for what it is, not an RPG will be fighting over space in the world. Having an rp'er sucking up floor space of a building because they make shit nobody buys. . . . lets not.

Leveling - Those people would still be level 1, if you wanted to make it competetive, resources would have to be located in higher areas. Let those crafters (Level 1's) into high level missions? Lets not.

Resources - People have to farm resources, lets stop fighting and pick up shit on the ground. Lets not.

Economy - You need to install infrastructure for this hardware to be
distributed. Lets not. How about the merchants that are everywhere and give whatever you need.

"Craftable" weapons? Why bother doing hard missions when you can have it handed to you. Lets not.

Customizable - Ruins weapon balance that they have and will be working hard for. Lets not.


But hey, if you want to just sit around in a pretty place and pick up shit to make, go try oblivion. You don't even have to pay monthly for that.

People will want crafted items since they will usually have a higher quality then quest or merchant weapons, but they will be more expensive, and if you don't want to be affiliated with RPers, then just avoid them, don't buy their shit, and not get their good crafted items that will be better then any of your crap. People want to relax sometimes, and the game company probably wants them to play more, so they will want something that will make them want to play even though they want to relax and not have a lot of action. and plus, it adds more to the game, some people enjoy crafting once in a while.

Leveling - may gain experience for making things, the better, the more exp, but harder.

Resources - They don't have to be off the ground. You can buy them off of merchants, many games have done that.

Economy - You don't have to make an infrastrucure, you can get an npc merchant to sell your stuff on the street or something (like a market type place) and crafted items would be better than merchant items (but probably more expensive since players usually over-price things sometimes)

"Craftable Weapons?" Missions give them free and you have to pay for crafted.

Customizable - What do you sonsider customizable, it may not be very powerful at all, like a better looking handle... but if it is something like heat seeking, there should be a major penalty or difficulty change.

and in oblivion, you don't have to run around to pick up all the shit to make things, you can just buy it... duh...

[nubs]

Originally Posted by Merilon

People will want crafted items since they will usually have a higher quality then quest or merchant weapons, but they will be more expensive, and if you don't want to be affiliated with RPers, then just avoid them, don't buy their shit, and not get their good crafted items that will be better then any of your crap.

Exactly why crafted items should not be in THIS game, there is no space for crafting in a wargame and you are bringing in the age old divide of giving those that have more spare time the ability to make their characters far better than those who simply dont have 12 hours a day spare to play a game. Its a stealth version of the forced level variance seen in MMORPGs that follow the original EQ system (just about all of them sadly). Its not needed in planetside and there is absolutely no need for it there either and thats the closest point of reference to Huxley you will find, the only key difference being that Huxley adds NPCs and more frenetic gameplay.

[vernes]

Originally Posted by nubs

Exactly why crafted items should not be in THIS game, there is no space for crafting in a wargame and you are bringing in the age old divide of giving those that have more spare time the ability to make their characters far better than those who simply dont have 12 hours a day spare to play a game.

It seems you're mixing the CRAFTER with the WEILDER.

What are you afraid of?:

• Crafters will use their own uber weapons and kill people with less effort?

  This should be solved by giving a player access to a limited amount of specialisations. You can play a kickass crafter, but not a kickass weaponweilder at the same time. A bit like certs in PlanetSide.

• Anyone who knows a crafter will have uber weapons this way?

  If anyone doesn't like social interactions, he could play quake with bots enables. Although taunting a computerprogram seems empty to me.

• People who spend more time looking for a crafter will have access to uber weapons?

  Looking for a shop or a crafter seems not much different. And I wouldn't like it if you could get every weapon from any shop. I REALLY hope not all stores will sell thesame weapons. When I spend a bit of time wondering the world of Huxley, I'd like to discover new stuff. City restricted weaponshops. So I can surprice my teammates with something new.
  "Wow, where'd you get THAT?"

Every time I try to defend the crafter skill I asume that crafters won't be able to take full advantage of their own products. I asume that crafters will SUPPLY their teammates. And not (as some seem to asume) supply themselves.

Considering that crafters play the role in a team to supply their team with weapons BETTER then what NPC-shops sell...
Don't you see my point of view that the crafter is just another class inside an army which simply adds a weaponfire bonus to said army?
Have a soldier weild anti-aircraft weapons and suddenly your team has a firepower bonus against aircrafts. Unbalanced? More like tactical insight.

[nubs]

If you want anti aircraft ability then your squad has people in it equipped to fight aircraft or fly/drive anti aircraft vehicles.

My point is that crafting will take time and resources, it will therefore cost large amounts of cash for to buy the best equipment from a crafter, or you will rely on crafters in your guild, crafters in very large guilds will likely get access to spare resources from combatants in those guilds thus increasing the dominance of large guilds and sidelining smaller guilds.

Its an fps game, inbalances in equipment have a MASSIVE impact on the gameplay, crafting opens up a can of worms and hugely increases the chances of their being an imbalance and thuse fucking off everyone who gets killed by the "I Win Button" wielding person.

Crafters not doing it for themselves..